Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
I actually really like the Vigilante class in Pathfinder 1e. I think it's fun and versatile, and it brings more utility to the table than fighter, one of its contemporaries. When designing one of my new characters, I went looking for advice or tips on the internet. Bad idea, I know. One of the most common questions was how one should deal with Vigilante's dual identity power. I can see why, it's not like anything else in the game. A piece of advice from the point of view of Pathfinder Society was to just... forget you have it. Just treat yourself as a fighter with some social powers.
I haven't been able to stop thinking about that reddit comment since. So we're gonna talk about that, and the comparison between Vigilante and its older siblings: Unchained Rogue and Fighter.
I'll address the actual piece of advice in question first. This is going to end up sounding backhanded, but I think it's decent advice for Pathfinder Society. It's structured play, and presumably you're mostly doing adventure paths. Adventure paths aren't "rigid" so much as... well, lame. Standardized. Yeah, let's just tear my mask off right now, I think it's good advice because I hate adventure paths and I dislike Pathfinder Society. I can't imagine it welcoming a tool that requires innovation and thinking outside of the box to use.
But I'd be lying if I said Vigilante didn't feel like an alternate rogue or fighter, depending on the specialization you took. I mean, that's the point, isn't it? Even some of its archetypes feel similar to bard or Pathfinder's numerous other utility casters. So... what really is the difference? Pathfinder does have classes that feel like they're intended to replace others. Arcanist comes to mind, it feels like the devs saying "We're sorry that Sorcerer is rigid and its bloodlines are lackluster. Here's a better version.". But it's too different to call it Unchained Sorcerer, and Sorcerer still has some advantages, so they exist in tandem.
That isn't the intention behind Vigilante, obviously. I can't help but notice the parallel, though. Remarkably similar to Arcanist, it's as if they're saying "We're sorry that Fighter doesn't have much to do outside of combat. Here.". So let's start there and compare what you're getting by playing Avenger Vigilante over Fighter, and what you're giving up.
What You're Getting
Pick-and-Choose Vigilante Talents. So, Avenger gets some pretty tasty powers, such as the pounce-like Mad Rush or the door-destroying Nothing Can Stop Me. You also get some talents that give more than just a bonus feat, like Lethal Grace, Vital Punishment or Unexpected Strike. Further, there are a lot of utility focused "general" powers that a warrior type would still benefit from, like Shadow's Speed.
But they can also take bonus feats like a Fighter. They even qualify as a Fighter of half their level, meaning they can reach some of the lower-end Fighter specific feats. A dominant strategy here is obviously to take a few nice or thematic talents, a few "bonus feat plus" talents, then fill out the rest with bonus feats. This is overall head and shoulders above Fighter.
Social Talents. The consensus is that you're giving up numerical bonuses for out-of-combat utility, and here's where some of it is. Social talents are chock-the-fuck-full of fun and useful things to take. They lean toward skill utility, either providing direct bonuses like Social Grace or capabilities like quick change or everyman to give you a quick, essentially unbeatable disguise. Social talents are amazing.
Dual Identity. This ability is the best disguise in the game... if you play your cards right. It's virtually unbeatable in terms of numbers and provides you protection against divination spells like Detect Alignment or Scry. However, it must be closely guarded: if you get revealed, you could lose your ability to use social talents or enormously impact your character's ability to interact socially, depending on the circumstances. A huge ability if you use it right.
Skills. Six plus INT mod is a lot more skills than Fighter gets, and the list of class skills is as long as your fucking arm. Here's the other half of that out-of-combat utility we were talking about. It's an enormous boost, you're almost a Rogue or Bard.
What You're Giving Up
Hit Points. You get fewer hit points, Vigilante's D8 vs. Fighter's D10. It's not a big loss, in my opinion.
Heavy Armor. You have to take a talent if you want to wear heavy armor, but at least it comes with a minor secondary bonus. Is this a big loss? It depends on your GM. In games with higher ability score values, this doesn't sting much. If you have the room to add some level of Dexterity to your character, you're likely to end up in medium armor anyway. In games with very low ability scores (such as Pathfinder Society) this certainly stings. But... see also Armor Training below.
Weapon Training and General Numeric Bonuses. So assuming your game gets to about level fifteen, Weapon Training by itself will be +3 to attack and damage. Gloves of Dueling is another +2, and Avengers can't wear those. You're also not likely to reach Greater Weapon Focus or Greater Weapon Specialization, which is another +1 Attack and +2 Damage. This brings your overall penalty to +6 Attack and +7 Damage. That's a fucking lot, and it's a major loss.
Advanced Weapon Training also bears mentioning here. You're still advancing the bonus on your primary weapon training group, but instead of additional groups (which let's be honest, nobody wants) you can take things like Effortless Dual Wielding to reduce TWF penalties, Weapon Specialist to expand weapon options, or various ways to apply your Weapon Training bonus to checks such as Trained Initiative. Another major loss.
Armor Training. So remember when I was talking about Heavy Armor Proficiency not being a big loss for Avenger? I do believe that. However, Armor Training means that a Fighter can wear progressively heavier armor without taking a loss, and you can expect many Fighters to end up in Full Plate over time. Realistically, this means they're about 2 to 4 points of Armor Class ahead, without counting Advanced Armor Training.
In addition to that, Fighters that don't need the expanded Max Dex Bonus on their armor can pick from a variety of powers, some of which will put them an additional 2 or 3 points of AC ahead or grant DR. In a low stat value game, this is an even bigger benefit to the Fighter, because you'll naturally get pushed to the heavier armor faster and take the Advanced Armor Training powers more readily.
The Verdict. So... I was prepared to call Avenger a solid and clear winner here, but six points of attack and damage is a fucking lot. The AC loss isn't as big, but it's the icing on that giant cake. Is six points a lot? Yes. Is it so much that you shouldn't ever sacrifice it for a ton of utility, if that's what you want? Definitely not. The true answer here is to weigh what you want your character to do and what kind of action the game's going to have. Just like I like it.
Stalker is up next. Unlike Fighter, Unchained Rogue is already picked for its ability to play as a "switch hitter", a class that can dish out decent damage but still carry utility along with it. Don't be surprised when I go into the differences in specific utility powers available, unlike the previous comparison.
What You're Getting
Pick-and-Choose Vigilante Talents. So, for things a rogue might take, there's a lot to love that a Stalker can easily reach. They can grab a climb speed via Rooftop infiltrator, an ability I always thought was underrated. They can take Hide in Plain Sight at 8th level, the always-nice Shadow's Speed for extra move speed, or Shadow Sight for decent senses. You also get access to some of the "bonus feat plus" talents I mentioned above, like Lethal Grace.
You can also do a similar thing as above, and take rogue talents. The same dominant strategy applies here, in a way: You'll pick the tastiest vigilante talents, then fill the rest out with rogue talents.
Social Talents. Not a lot more to say here that I didn't already say above. Social talents are a wealth of utility, and they fit nicely into a Stalker's kit. A minor note here is that social talents lean toward being... well, social. It's a different approach than the classic Rogue sneakery, but it intersects in some places, like Skill Familiarity or the various disguise powers.
Dual Identity. Everything I said above is still true. However, this can matter a touch more for a stalker: your vigilante identity can be the one seen doing all the dirty work or spotted while sneaking around, and your social identity stays squeaky clean and innocent. Avengers likely get their sneak-and-subterfuge on as well, but not as often as Stalker.
General Toughness. Stalker still gets medium armor proficiency Avenger does. Not a big boost, but it can be nice if you'd like to divorce yourself from being married to DEX like Rogue is.
Weapon Proficiency. Unlike Rogue, you get the full spread of Martial weapons. Another minor boost in my opinion, but weapon choice will matter a bit more for you than for a Rogue. See the section on combat prowess, below.
What You're Giving Up
Skills. It's not a huge deal at this level, but it's worth mentioning that your skills go down from eight plus INT to six plus INT. You also don't get Rogue's Edge, instead relying on your social talents to compensate. This is not a huge loss, as not all of the skill unlocks are very good.
The Curse of the Buffet. There's two key abilities that rogue gets, and vigilante can reach, but they have to spend a talent on it. Namely, they are Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. You can choose not to take them, of course, but in general this means you're going to have fewer talents than a rogue does. You can't replace it with feats, either: There is no "Extra Vigilante Talent" feat. Some talents may feel as if they make up for it with their "talent plus a bonus" nature like Sure-Footed, but it's a push-pull that mostly leaves Rogue ahead.
General Combat Prowess. I'm not gonna lie. Oh, lordy this one hurts. You may remember from my previous posts that Unchained Rogue can actually be competitive with Fighter in terms of damage output. This is in no small part thanks to Debilitating Injury, which Stalker does not get and does not have an analogue for. Stalker does not get Finesse Training either. Lethal Grace is arguably better damage overall, but it's another talent from the buffet that Rogue is getting for free.
And finally. We gotta talk about it, the elephant in the room: Hidden Strike is a straight downgrade from Sneak Attack. On paper, it looks like it's an even trade-off: you're worse at flanking, but better at other sources of gaining Sneak Attack. In practice, flanking is overwhelmingly the best source of sneak attack. As in past ninety percent of the time. Feinting requires a heavy feat expenditure, and doesn't really even get to a place where it competes. Other tricks, such as blinding, are gimmicks that also, again, require investment. Flanking remains free: you just need a friend.
Vigilante does get a few ways to assist you getting in those flat-footed attacks, but they're lackluster. Startling Presence extends your ability to deal damage in an ambush situation, but let's face it: not every game is going to be conducive to constant sneak-and-ambush combat. You're going to be in traditional combat situations most of the time, unless the GM is running a different kind of game. You also get Perfect Vulnerability, but... I'm sorry, it sucks. It's one attack, and once per day per enemy.
There's also even more to say about loss of combat effectiveness in the next section.
Advanced Talents. This is another one that hurts, ya'll. No advanced talents means no Opportunist, which can be an enormous source of damage if played right. It means no Crippling Strike for a bucket full of free STR damage, and you also lose out on some nice defensive options like Slippery Mind or Defensive Roll. A loss of particular note is Rumormonger, which can be difficult to use but wildly effective in the right hands or in the right game. Losing out on advanced talents isn't the end of the world, but Stalker doesn't get anything to replace many of their capabilities.
The Verdict. This time, Unchained Rogue wins handily. Does Stalker suck? Of course not. Can you still play Stalker if it's what you want? Of course you can. But as I said earlier, the core idea of Rogue is that it's a utility player that can handle itself in combat too. Stalker doesn't perform as well in that role: the loss of Debilitating Injury and the downgrade from Sneak Attack is enormous, and they don't get anything to compensate.
Like I said at the beginning, I really like Vigilante. I think it brings a lot of unique gameplay opportunities and cool powers, and at the end of the day... that's what counts. Is it more than viable compared to its siblings? Yes. Am I a little biased here, as well? Also yes. Giving up some amount of numerical bonus to have a wider range of utility is exactly the choice I make all the time when designing characters.
Vigilante can make that choice in a dozen different ways, and next up I'll talk about one of the bigger ones: its spellcasting archetypes. See you soon.
