You saw the clickbaity title, let's fucking go. I love monstrous PCs and they're always of dubious balance. I know for a fact that it matters a lot at lower levels, but I always wondered if that holds up later on. We haven't really run many 3.X or Pathfinder games at higher levels, let alone with a monstrous PC. So since the math is escaping me and I was going to crunch it anyway, we might as well do it together. That means Punch and Judy are back, so let's put down some ground rules to the test.
Punch is playing a human fighter. He showed up at the last gaming session drunk and got in a fight about playing his half dragon, half vampire tanari-ri spellshaper, and his punishment is to play a race from the core book. We're giving him the best chance he can get when compared against Judy while still building a "normal" character. We could have given him orc as a race, and this test would go similarly, but human is not a race to be scoffed at, and it let him put a +2 into Strength.
Judy is playing an ogre fighter. Seeing as how she stopped Punch's rampage by suplexing him through a card table, the GM is being a little lenient and letting her pick a monster PC. We chose ogre for several reasons: It's a low CR monster ostensibly good for converting into a PC. It's the best numbers a monster PC will ever get, hands down, with its +10 to strength, +4 to constitution, and +5 natural armor. Speaking in terms of raw numbers, this is the best a monster PC is ever going to get, and every other choice is likely to be worse. Third, it's got no special abilities. These are obviously something that needs to be balanced on a case by case basis and not something I can give general advice on.
HP is standardized, and the stat spread is 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10. This is a decent spread to run a game with, and while I always recommend GMs let players slide points around, we have not done so in this instance. Punch and Judy aren't the kind of people that can be trusted with that.
Judy will receive a bonus level of fighter between levels 7 and 8. This is a standard Pathfinder rule, and while I'm not entirely certain of its balance, we're including it. Watch for Judy's "Ogre" levels to go from 3 to 2. In addition, the book says to treat the monster's CR as its total levels, so I did so for purposes of feats and stat bonuses. She still received the other numerical bonuses for having 4HD.
They will not be building identically. While I feel they should both be going for the same sort of role, building identically wouldn't really prove anything. They're both going to be shooting for getting the most damage they can out of a full attack action with a two handed weapon, but as you'll see Punch has some strengths he wants to leverage, and it would be unfair to ignore that.
We won't be discussing magic items. This is not only because they could just be wearing the same shit, but also because precisely what you're spending your money on can be a huge X-factor. I will absolutely put notes down about magic items later when we discuss "intangibles" that aren't represented by the stat blocks, but there aren't many differences. This also means me including AC and CMD is a bit pointless, since neither character is going to be leveraging Armor Training without DEX boosting items. In this case, we can just say Punch has a minor advantage: Not only does he have 2 extra DEX, but he's also receiving Armor Training a little faster. It won't close the gap caused by her natural armor entirely, but it'll help.
We won't be discussing Skills. Judy is just behind in this. Me listing out exactly what they spent their skill points on would take up too much space for something that's never going to change. She loses this comparison over all levels. She gets one skill at max rank, and Punch gets four. This is absolutely a disadvantage, and don't dismiss that: Most games are not going to be more than 60% fighting, and that means Judy is 'down' for 40% of the time.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
PUNCH
Race: Human
Level: Fighter 5
STR 21(5) DEX 14(2) CON 16(3) INT 14(2) WIS 12(1) CHA 10(0)
FORT +7(4base+3con) REF +3(1base+2dex) WIL +2(1base+1wis)
AC 21(9armor+2dex) CMD 22(5ab+5str+2dex)
HP: 47
BAB: +5
Feats: 1 Weapon Focus, 1b Improved Unarmed Strike, 1b Combat Expertise, 2b Power Attack, 3 Improved Trip, 4b Weapon Specialization, 5 Combat Reflexes
Attacks: +11, 1d10+10
Equipment: Full Plate(+9), Halberd(1d10, Brace, Trip)
--
JUDY
Race: Ogre
Level: Ogre 3(4HD) Fighter 2
STR 29(9) DEX 12(1) CON 20(5) INT 08(-1) WIS 14(2) CHA 08(-1)
FORT +14(7base+5con) REF +2(1base+1dex) WIL +3(1base+2wis)
AC 24(9armor+1dex+5nat-1size) CMD 26(5AB+9str+1dex+1size)
HP: 67
BAB: +5
Feats: 1 Weapon Focus, 3 Power Attack, 4b Improved Sunder, 5 Lunge, 5b Toughness
Attacks: +14, 3d6+13
Equipment: Full Plate(+9), Large Greatsword(3d6)
--
Judy is a really clear winner here at level five. Punch is still putting his build together, whereas Judy is leveraging some really easy early bonuses. With power attack, she can lower her attack bonus to +12(still just above Punch's) for a whopping 3d6+19 damage. She also has an immense amount of HP and is wholly unafraid of popping Lunge to stack on her reach. She took Improved Sunder early because of her Strength advantage, but also because she has way less "combo" and "setup" in her feats than Punch. At any rate, Punch loses this round pretty badly. That's okay, though: We knew he was going to.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
PUNCH
Race: Human
Level: Fighter 10
STR 22(6) DEX 14(2) CON 16(3) INT 14(2) WIS 12(1) CHA 10(0)
FORT +10(7base+3con) REF +5(3base+2dex) WIL +4(3base+1wis)
AC 21(9armor+2dex) CMD 23(5ab+6str+2dex)
HP: 89
BAB: +10/+5
Feats: 1 Weapon Focus, 1b Improved Unarmed Strike, 1b Combat Expertise, 2b Power Attack, 3 Improved Trip, 4b Weapon Specialization, 5 Combat Reflexes 6b greater trip 7 vicious stomp 8b greater weapon focus 9 improved critical 10b critical focus
Attacks: +20/+15 1d10+13
Trip Attack Round: +22/+17 1d10+13, +19 1d3+7
Equipment: Full Plate(+9), Halberd(1d10, Brace, Trip)
--
JUDY
Race: Ogre
Level: Ogre 2(4HD) Fighter 8
STR 30(10) DEX 12(1) CON 20(5) INT 08(-1) WIS 14(2) CHA 08(-1)
FORT +15(10base+5con) REF +4(3base+1dex) WIL +5(3base+2wis)
AC 24(9armor+1dex+5nat-1size) CMD 27(5AB+10str+1dex+1size)
HP: 125
BAB: +11/+6/+1
Feats: 1 Weapon Focus, 3 Power Attack, 4b improved sunder, 5 Lunge, 5b Toughness 6b greater sunder 7 weapon specialization 7b cleave 9 improved critical 9b greater weapon focus
Attacks: +23/+18/+13 3d6+17
Equipment: Full Plate(+9), Large Greatsword(3d6)
--
The first thing you'll notice is why I'm leery of giving Judy another class level at any point. She doesn't really need it, and in this instance it means she's effective level 10, and has a BAB of +11, letting her attain three attacks per round a level early. So, right there I feel we should throw that rule out or alter it so it's one bonus every four or even five levels, or simply only apply it to players who are really missing those class abilities like casters. I honestly thought about shifting this example to level 12 so the number of attacks looks better, but this was too indicative of why that particular rule wasn't great in this specific example. Please keep in mind that Punch will catch up to three attacks next level.
That said, Punch has finished the core of his build: He picked Halberd to trade a little damage for an extra +2 to trip. He didn't have to do that, he could be rocking a greatsword or an exotic weapon. The plan is to trip so he can proc AoOs from himself and his party and also get a decent 'throw in' attack via vicious stomp. Ironically, if this were a competition, Punch would be using Judy's massive reach and damage 'against' her by providing her with an AoO to take. That would count as 'his' damage since he's the one who created the opportunity. For her part, Judy is trucking along with a pretty typical power attack tree build. There's no "combo" for her to leverage: just various combat options and direct bonuses.
Is Judy still ahead? Yep. Does she still have a truckload more HP? Yep. Note that her Toughness feat accounts for 12HP, though. What's interesting is how Punch has caught up: First off, he's leveraging a build that Judy couldn't attain without some heavy attributes shifting, and it probably wouldn't be worth it even then. She absolutely is locked out of certain types of build. If Punch can reliably trip, he's getting an additional attack overall and a +2 to hit. Second, he's two levels ahead, and that means he's already got Weapon Training 2. Third, Judy is only ever going to be between three and five points ahead, and as they level, it'll start to matter less.
PUNCH
Race: Human
Level: Fighter 20
STR 25(7) DEX 14(2) CON 16(3) INT 14(2) WIS 12(1) CHA 10(0)
FORT +15(12base+3con) REF +8(6base+2dex) WIL +7(6base+1wis)
AC 21(9armor+2dex) CMD 23(5ab+7str+2dex)
HP: 174
BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5
Feats: 1 Weapon Focus, 1b Improved Unarmed Strike, 1b Combat Expertise, 2b Power Attack, 3 Improved Trip, 4b Weapon Specialization, 5 Combat Reflexes, 6b greater trip, 7 vicious stomp, 8b greater weapon focus, 9 improved critical, 10b critical focus, 11 bleeding critical, 12b greater weapon specialization, 13 stand still, 14b penetrating strike, 15 felling smash, 16b greater penetrating strike, 17 staggering critical, 18b stunning critical, 19 critical mastery, 20b lunge
Attacks: +33/+28/+23/+18 1d10+18
Trip Attack Round: +35/+30/+25/+20 1d10+18 +32 1d3+10
Equipment: Full Plate(+9), Halberd(1d10, Brace, Trip)
--
JUDY
Race: Ogre
Level: Ogre 2(4HD) Fighter 18
STR 33(11) DEX 12(1) CON 20(5) INT 08(-1) WIS 14(2) CHA 08(-1)
FORT +20(15base+5con) REF +8(7base+1dex) WIL +9(7base+2wis)
AC 24(9armor+1dex+5nat-1size) CMD 27(5AB+10str+1dex+1size)
HP: 230
BAB: +21/+16/+11/+6
Feats: 1 Weapon Focus, 3 Power Attack, 3b improved sunder, 4b Lunge, 5 Toughness, 6b greater sunder, 7 weapon specialization, 8b cleave, 9 improved critical, 10b greater weapon focus, 11 critical focus, 12b sickening critical, 13 staggering critical, 14b weapon specialization, 15 stand still, 16b greater cleave, 17 stunning critical, 18b improved bull rush, 19 awesome blow, 20b greater bull rush
Attacks: +37/+32/+27/+22 3d6+24
Equipment: Full Plate(+9), Large Greatsword(3d6)
--
Again that bonus level sticks in my craw, giving Judy a BAB of 21. I looked it up and no, this does NOT mean she gets another attack. Thank god. I adjusted the levels she's getting feats at to avoid a headache as well. The fact that she's got less feats than Punch remains the same. I also want to note that both builds had a hell of a lot of directions to go, and I deliberately leaned on taking Critical feats with Punch because I knew I was doing that with Judy. He could discard all of those and shoot for shatter defenses, whirlwind attack, or other stuff. He's got a lot of options. Judy has some too: She could've reached Awesome Blow earlier or taken more stuff like Improved Overrun instead of crit feats.
For power comparison, we see that Punch lost a little bit of ground in hitroll since both have finished Weapon Training. Judy is still doing a lot more damage overall, with a single hit being an average of 34 damage to Punch's 23. He is, however, getting a stomp attack in as well as causing greater trip AoO opportunities, something Judy's build probably couldn't ever do. She's still ahead on attack, damage and HP, but it isn't as clear. Note that Judy's big bucket of HP was attainable by a regular PC, and Punch may have something similar if he were able to shift attribute points around.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
So what did we learn? We gave Judy the best chance she'll ever get to outclass a human fighter, and it ended up closer than I thought it would. If this is the best that "reasonable" monster PC options have to offer in terms of power, I think most GMs could easily consider monstrous options. Let's put some bullet points below explaining a few things.
Judy's damage is from a size advantage, as well as the two-handed weapon multiplier. she gets a bonus D6 compared to a medium character, first off. She's always a die type ahead. Second, the 1.5 damage multiplier on two handed weapons is better and better the more strength you've got. She's leveraging her best bonus in this case by insisting on a greatsword. Were she switch to longsword and shield(since two weapon fighting isn't viable for her) her damage drops to 2d6+19 at level 20.
Magic Items are going to help Punch a little more than Judy. By level 20 they're both going to have +10 equivalent weapons, but Punch has the option of a monk's belt to increase his vicious stomp damage.
Punch's damage could have been better. If he were an orc with a greatsword, it'd be 2d6+20, or an average of 27 damage. He'd be losing a +2 to trip for a weapon swap, and a feat would be the major loss for going orc.
The bonus levels from playing a monstrous PC are deceptive. I feel they should only be used in a case where the monster is going against the grain of their race, shooting for utility, or playing a caster. Judy really didn't need it.
Judy being two levels behind may or may not matter. Yeah, this is kind of the elephant in the room, Judy's ogre fucking rocks if it's going to be a short game where Punch can't catch up. She's missing the quite important Armor Mastery and Weapon Mastery currently, but if the game's going into epic levels...she'll get them soon. If the game didn't even reach 20? Punch didn't get them either. GMs should consider ABOUT how long their game is going to go in some cases before allowing something.
Judy's INT penalty is not a worthless disadvantage. I did this on purpose. The Combat Expertise tree isn't useless. Neither are skills, not even to a fighter. Some people are content playing the sort of guy who "wakes up" for combat and surfs the net on his phone while skills are being rolled...but it's not exactly the most enjoyment you can get out of PNP games. A good GM can make Judy feel her disadvantages.
Size will probably come into play. That's what she said. In combat, being size large is a huge advantage, and being size small is a disadvantage. However, in non-combat situations this is reversed: being large is only a nuisance, and being small lets you fit in and through things as well as giving a stealth skill bonus. Again, do not take any of Judy's disadvantages lightly. Don't completely fuck her out of an adventure, though. It may seem 'logical' that she can't fit into a dungeon entrance, but what's the player going to do, go pick up the pizza?
Class factors in to your decision. I can go into the specifics of what to look for in monsters later, but in general, primary attributes matter most, so the class the player is picking is absolutely a factor. If Judy had picked Ogre but then played a cleric, or even a monk, she'd still have a perfectly viable, even powerful character, but the gap here wouldn't be nearly as exaggerated. Strength and Dex are your particular problems here. There are a ton of monsters with modifiers of +8 or higher in these attributes, but far less with huge bonuses in the other four. I should probably turn this into an additional blog topic, but in general, you're worrying a lot less about monster casters.
So what did we learn? Well, like I said, Ogre was Judy's best possible chance to be better than Punch, and even then she only ended up 3-5 points of attack and about six or so damage. She's got more HP, but honestly that can sometimes relieve a GM, and let them throw a bunch of attacks at her if things are going south for the party. Judy's HP isn't outside the realm of normal possibility, anyway.
So in summation? If a monster is under CR5, it's probably fine to allow in your game. Double-check any abilities it has, and we'll go deeper into advice later.
So what did we learn? Well, like I said, Ogre was Judy's best possible chance to be better than Punch, and even then she only ended up 3-5 points of attack and about six or so damage. She's got more HP, but honestly that can sometimes relieve a GM, and let them throw a bunch of attacks at her if things are going south for the party. Judy's HP isn't outside the realm of normal possibility, anyway.
So in summation? If a monster is under CR5, it's probably fine to allow in your game. Double-check any abilities it has, and we'll go deeper into advice later.
No comments:
Post a Comment