So I explained part of why you shouldn't whip out your iron fist when it comes to player stats, but I didn't explain one major reason. This next one is going to discuss class balance in pathfinder and D&D 3.X in fairly general terms, but I hope you can take the philosophy and start to see it in other games. I discussed The Eighteen to convey the concept that a player naturally wants to put the best numbers they can in their most important stats. However, where they put those numbers is quite an interesting little question.
Classes are dependent on stats to function. However, not all classes are created equal, and can be divided into two categories called Single Attribute Dependent and Multiple Attribute Dependent. Everyone needs CON equally, so it doesn't factor into which category a class goes into. In fact, classes that are solely dependent on CON like Kineticist or the Scarred Witch Doctor variant have a bit of a leg up on other classes, at least in terms of variety. Regardless, classes whose effectiveness hinge on one stat go in the first category, while classes who have to worry about more than one go into the second. This is why abilities or feats like Slashing Grace are so nice: They let you reduce the number of stats your class is dependent on.
Single Attribute Classes are like wizard, sorcerer or fighter. The fighter needs a big CON(like everyone does) but then either a big STR or a big DEX, depending on their build. They can deal with a low dex with armor, and INT, WIS and CHA don't really help them very much even if they were quite high. They get skill points from INT, but even an 18 won't get them more skill points than a rogue with a 10. They need it to get Combat Expertise or any of its children feats, but all that really requires is a 13. WIS is even less useful, giving them Will Save bonuses that would be relatively overshadowed by save bonus items, or even their wizard friend. The less we say about CHA, the better, since the only CHA skill they've got is Intimidate, and skill bonuses are all they're ever going to receive from the stat.
Compare this to the Paladin. They need CON like everyone does. They need CHA for all of their class abilities, some of which(like Divine Grace, their bonus to saving throws) are very important. However, they also still need STR or DEX to attack people with, because while CHA provides a lot of bonuses, direct, reliable damage isn't one of them. Smite Evil softens the blow by adding CHA to damage, but it's an ability that only has so many uses per day. To capitalize on it and to be the most effective they can, they needs STR.
Monk is even worse. They need WIS for AC and class abilities. STR to hit people with, CON to take a hit, and DEX to shore up their AC(since they can't wear armor) and improve the skill utility their class is geared toward. Multiclass characters or atypical builds can hit this as well and end up having to either take steps toward lowering their reliance on other stats(consider the sorcerer/rogue who takes only a sixteen in charisma and focuses on buff or utility spells that don't cause saving throws) or get a little clever in how their character is played.
Let's look at two stat values for a fighter. Punch is going to be built on 76 points, and Judy is going to be built on 84. Both of them are going to try to build the best STR-based fighter they can.
Punch: STR 18 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 10
Judy: STR 18 DEX 14 CON 18 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 10
So what's the difference? What's the REAL difference that a whopping 8 more build points made? Judy is going to have one more hit point per level, one more point of AC, and two more skill points per level. She can take some Combat Expertise feats if she wants(but let's face it, she's a violent little bitch. It's not likely) and she's a bit tougher than Punch. All those skill points might help her feel useful outside of combat, which means less standing around and less starting fights just so she can feel useful again.
All in all, it's not MUCH of a difference. Eight points didn't go as far as a lot of people might have thought, because classes dependent on a single stat hit a saturation point where more points just aren't really all that useful. Neither of our two lovebirds above really benefits from pumping even more in their dexterity: Both are planning on wearing full plate. More DEX would mean wearing lighter armor, which is a benefit to movement and skill points, but not to their AC.
Here's an interesting question, though. Could Punch have built a paladin, if he wanted? Maybe. Would he feel good doing it? Definitely not. Paladin is balanced with its extra dependence in mind, but he'd be stretched too thin to feel like he made the best paladin he could, and would probably rather go back to his fighter. Could Judy have built a paladin? Absolutely. She wouldn't have The Eighteen in all of her important stats, but she'd be satisfied with the choices she made. Of course, both of those shits would probably build an antipaladin instead, but the logic still applies.
That's what I'm saying, really. When lowering starting stat values, you hit a point where all you're doing is restricting the classes people play by making the ones dependent on multiple stats either hard to build, or impossible. In a game like Pathfinder or 3.X which both have so many classes in them, you're doing the systems a disservice.
Do later systems (like Pathfinder and DnD 3.5) use a 1 for 1 ratio for stat build points? Or do the rules still make you use more build points to raise a stat value as it gets higher? Been a while since I've read up on that... I know we as a group tend to just use 1 to 1 regardless of what the rules state for ease of generation and for the reasons you mention above, so what would you say to those out there who adamantly follow the written rules for character gen? Also, this looks like a stat spread for 99% of experienced gamers with these numbers of build points, so what would stop a GM from just handing a player 6 numbers and having them plug them into the sheet? It would certainly speed things up but do you think that it's worth it to continue to assign points for the element of player creativity and choice on the off chance they would want to spread themselves a little thinner? This of course, coming from the one and only player to ever voluntarily lower their mental stats (without reassigning them) on a character for the sake of RP...
ReplyDelete1 for 1 ratios are strictly a house rule that I severely recommend. Newer systems still use the scaling point system, which I hate with a passion. It's okay to use it given an incredibly generous amount of points, but generally all the scaling point system does is destroy your ability to play a class with multiple attribute dependencies.
ReplyDeleteAs for handing players six flat numbers...it can work. Mike H. used to do this with the spread 18,16,14,14,12,10. You're edging dangerously close to building their character for them, though, which I mentioned earlier. So you'd have to be careful with what those stats are.
And Blorch's mental stats kind of show what I mean about stat saturation. Even if you were a power-minded person you would've easily still made the same decision, because those three stats didn't really benefit you much. I still think he'd have a higher CHA, though.
I agree, skills like intimidation really suffered for that choice, and Blorch was VERY intimidating whether a stat based skill reflected that or not
ReplyDeleteThat as well as Charisma representing force of will and personality more than looks or manners. There's a lot of examples of 'ugly' people with a high charisma like John Merrick, Yoda or Yubaba from spirited away. Of course, there's a huge abundance of people who are clearly the opposite end of the spectrum like our boy Kanye.
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